236. The Simple Way to Start Decluttering & Feel Less Overwhelmed

Samantha Hawley (: 00:00

Welcome to Beyond Awareness, everyone. Today we have Tracy Hoth with us. Welcome, Tracy.

Tracy Hoth (: 00:06

Thanks, Samantha. I'm so glad to be here.

Samantha Hawley (: 00:09

I am so excited. I've been excited since we first connected because Tracy, for those of you that don't know, is a professional organizer for 17 years. And she's also a life coach. And I feel like those two things combined are magical and so needed. And you help business owners bring it calm and clarity to backend operations, but also their daily lives. And something that I so often experience myself and hear from

Tracy Hoth (: 00:26

You

Samantha Hawley (: 00:38

my clients is that they feel like they are so messy and they feel like they want a clean space, but they're just not doing it. And just the whole organizing, it's a struggle for us. So I'm excited to dive in. And I'm curious, have you always been organized and clutter free or was there like a moment for you where you're like, I can't keep living like this?

Tracy Hoth (: 01:04

I love this question. So I feel like I've always been what I would call practically or down to earth kind of organized. I'm not one that's really anal and I don't have color coded things and I don't like to decanter, but I do have less stuff. What I found when I go into people's homes, I don't go into homes anymore, but what I had found was

If I had as much stuff as they do, I would be overwhelmed, completely unable to keep up with it. So I think I just have less stuff. But I do have to say that I have a space where we throw clutter as well. It's called my secret room. It's an attic space. And we only call that because our boys played in there. It was off their bedroom, not because I'm hiding it from anybody. But...

I put things in there and our whole family does that we don't want to make a decision on and clutter is just delayed decisions. So that's kind of a storage room or if we don't want to make a decision, we'll stick something in there. But the difference is I know I can clean it up or declutter it anytime I want because I know the steps to get organized and it's no big deal.

Samantha Hawley (: 01:55

Yeah.

So I love that first and foremost because I've talked to people before who are organized organizers, guess, or organized coaches, things like that. But so many of them say that they've always been this way. And I'm like, then you don't get it. You don't understand the mental toll that it takes. But you said something

You said clutter is just a delayed decision. Can you explain more about that?

Tracy Hoth (: 02:43

Yeah, so we just delay making a decision on what we either where it's going to live in our house or if we want to keep it or if we want to let it go.

or where it should go. So all of those decisions, if we don't make them, create some stuff and we can label it clutter if we want to. Because being organized just means that you know what you have and you can find it when you need it. And so clutter is just not having made the decisions on the stuff.

Samantha Hawley (: 03:08

Mm.

That's really powerful. You just did a whole episode at the time of this recording on decision making that I listened to. And you have a framework for that, which this episode is not about, but I'll tag that episode in the show notes. ⁓ But I feel like that's really powerful to frame it as clutter is just a decision, because that almost makes it like something tangible and doable that you can take an action on, not just the state of your house or the state of your desk, that it's just

clutter, I'm a cluttered person, I'm messy, things like that.

Tracy Hoth (: 03:47

Yeah, and I think having that definition

⁓ What do you call it? Neutralizes the circumstance. One of my clients was like, have all this stuff. I we all think that. I have so much. I have all these things, these piles, these boxes. And I'm like, well, let's give it a number. Let's just try to neutralize the clutter that you have. You have 1,000 things that you have to sort and purge and go through the steps and make decisions on. That's it. No big deal. It's just a pile of stuff that is exact number.

Samantha Hawley (: 03:55

Mmm.

Tracy Hoth (: 04:21

And we can do that. We can put a puzzle together. That's a thousand piece puzzle. No big deal. We're just going to go through the things.

Samantha Hawley (: 04:25

Yeah.

So in theory, it sounds simple. I'm like, just make a decision. It's yes or no, you know? But as you are very well aware, there must be so much ⁓ nuance to it. And there's like emotional ties. And you can't let certain things go. So what are your steps to become less cluttered or to make easier decisions and feel more organized?

Tracy Hoth (: 04:35

you

Well, the steps to get organized are spell the word space. So they are to sort, purge, assign homes, contain, and energize. And I like knowing that the first two steps to sort and purge are decluttering. So sorting first is essential. going back to the puzzle analogy, I've been using this since a client and I discovered this a few weeks ago, but

we sort first, we sort the puzzle into shapes, usually an edge and a non-edge to start with, and that's it. And so we're not overwhelmed when we look at a puzzle, we just sort it. And that's what we do in organizing too, because if we started, like even if I go into my closet and say like, I need to get rid of some stuff, I would pick one thing up and I'd be like, well, I don't know. And then I would be like, this is too hard. And I'd put it back.

Samantha Hawley (: 05:26

Yeah.

Tracy Hoth (: 05:47

But if I took out all my tank tops, laid them out, put them in by color if I wanted to, and then tried them on and asked myself some questions, I could easily go through it, I guess more easily than if I just looked at a tank top and said, should I keep this or get rid of it? So we sort first and then we purge. And one of the methods that here's the decision-making part, one of the methods I like to do is to pick my favorites out first.

Samantha Hawley (: 06:05

Mm-hmm.

Tracy Hoth (: 06:16

And I started doing this with kids, just saying, okay, what toy do you play with the most? What's your most favorite thing here? So that they had a framework because as soon as you say, what should I get rid of? Your whole body is like nothing. Don't touch anything. And so I ask to pick your favorites and then you can go from there with some other questions.

Samantha Hawley (: 06:29

Mmm, yeah.

Hmm. I really like that because when you frame anything from a space of like lack or like you're getting rid of something or even it's like when you tell a kid don't do this then that's they they skip the word don't and they're so focused on the other thing but and I've been actually trying to reframe my goal of saving money because I used to say I don't want to spend money and that created so much resistance in my body of like

Tracy Hoth (: 06:48

Boo.

Samantha Hawley (: 07:05

don't spend money at Target besides what you definitely need or don't even go to Target. And I was like, ⁓ But if I reframed it as saving, then it almost feels more inspiring. And the steps that you shared already feels doable. It feels like, I could do even just the tank tops, not the whole wardrobe.

Tracy Hoth (: 07:25

Yes, and to go along with that, once you pick your favorites, the things you use and wear it in whatever all the time, then the next part that's more on the positive side of it is to know where you're going to go.

And so you have this clear picture of like, this is what I'm doing in the next year or two. This is what I'm focused on. And then you can run that decision through that filter. Does this fit into that? Does this enhance the life that I want to live? Does this make it easy for me to keep up with the stuff that I'm keeping in my house? Does this fit into the container that I've been given at this point in my life? And then it makes it so much easier to think through those

Samantha Hawley (: 08:05

Mm.

Tracy Hoth (: 08:08

decisions or

that filter. And it's what you want. It's what you want to move toward.

Samantha Hawley (: 08:16

I love that, just the vision of what you want. And I'm picturing my desk, not just picturing, I'm literally looking at my desk, and I've got a Dunkin' Donuts small coffee, also my own coffee mug, one hand lotion, one lip gloss that I just put on right before I pressed record, two water bottles, a Chomps meat stick, and I mean, I could keep going. But when I think of, all right, my ideal self.

which isn't too far away even, would not get rid of everything, but have a space

Tracy Hoth (: 08:50

Yeah.

Samantha Hawley (: 08:50

for everything. Yeah, I love that.

Tracy Hoth (: 08:52

Yes, and you can easily

say like, do I want to imagine myself and how do I want to feel at this desk and really dive deep into that if you wanted to or you could keep as simple as five minutes just saying, I want to come to my desk. I always want to have a water, a snack, a lotion and a lip gloss, you know, or something like that. And then you kind of know what you want.

Samantha Hawley (: 09:18

Mm-hmm. I like that. Now, when you declutter, ⁓ or another example that I hear a lot from my clients is that one closet that you want to organize, or redo. It's an inspiring thing, but it just feels like such a big project. So with that too, do you always start with sorting from this space analogy?

Tracy Hoth (: 09:42

Yes, I always say to sort and that could look a few different ways. So if you were thinking about a closet, the first thing I always tell people is make organizing a project that you have a start and an end date. That way it doesn't become this endless

weight of stuff you have to do forever. No, you're going to start and end and map it out like what you want to do to be done with that area. So then you can celebrate and you can actually see like, look, I am organized. There's evidence. I've done it. But then, yes, I say to sort. And if you have the ability, the endurance, the space available, I like to sort the entire area that you want to work on. But many people don't have the

the opportunity to do that. And so it's easier if you pull out a category like with the closet. I don't want you to take your entire closet and dump it on your bed. So you would take out one category at a time. Maybe all the shoes come out of the closet. You sort them. You'd then purge them and you assign homes, decide where they're going to go back in and then choose a container. Maybe you don't need a container, but maybe you want to get something that keeps them on

Samantha Hawley (: 10:35

You

Tracy Hoth (: 10:54

where they're supposed to be. And the reason that contain step is there is so that it triggers you to go back. the containers getting exceeded. I need to go back through the steps. So yeah, I would say either pick a category to start with and sort everything from that category, pull it out or sort the whole thing.

Samantha Hawley (: 11:16

Now I feel like a lot of people listening might think, okay, this is doable, but they know themselves and they're like, but I've started and stopped so many times. Like they did, maybe didn't set that start and end date and they just stopped in the middle and their closet is half done or their laundry like me is still on the living room floor. So do you find that in your clients too? Like, and is there a reason that we

start and stop or don't start at all.

Tracy Hoth (: 11:47

Well, I think we don't start at all because we make it into this huge thing that's going to take forever. And so we spend all this time thinking about how huge it is when we could

probably have finished it in the amount of time that we've dreaded doing it. But the other thing is, and this came up with one of my clients, she had now labeled herself as someone who didn't finish things. She was a great starter, but she never finished. And what she realized as we were coaching is that she just never schedules the finishing. She always schedules the starting.

But she just didn't schedule it. And she's like, my gosh, all I have to do is write down now on my calendar, finish that space or keep going in that space. The great part of being half done with your closet is that you're half done. Like you got started. It was just that maybe you didn't schedule when you were going to finish it or when you were going to keep going. You kind of lost that momentum and you know, life happens and things come up. And so you, you got distracted.

And that's it.

Samantha Hawley (: 12:51

Yeah. So everything is just so neutral. I love that. There's no judgment or shame for starting and stopping. But I like that you said that she had labeled herself as a person who starts and stops and doesn't follow through, essentially. Or I've heard a lot, and I've even said myself, I'm just a messy person. Or have messy seasons that I go in and out of. ⁓ How do you help someone through those sorts of things, like the labels that they have on themselves or

Tracy Hoth (: 13:01

Hmm.

Samantha Hawley (: 13:21

any other beliefs that are driving the lack of decisions or the resistance that comes up when it comes to organizing.

Tracy Hoth (: 13:30

Yeah, I love and this is something everyone needs to think about and I first heard this from Sarah Arnold Hall is that you can't outperform your identity. So if you're identifying yourself as a messy person, someone who doesn't finish things, then that's what you're going to be.

Like you're not going to outperform that. So to first, we just look at recognizing, ⁓ what do you think you are? Is it something you've deemed as part of your personality or because you have ADHD, this is just who you are and how you are or what is it? So recognizing that. And then of course, deciding who we want to be. And there's a couple of things I help people do, either it's ⁓

Samantha Hawley (: 13:59

Yeah.

Tracy Hoth (: 14:19

When you method act, that's one way people say it or use an alter ego. So you pretend or act like you're the person that you want to be. But I also like as you do that, you decide who you want to be. You're finding evidence. That's why I like to start with mindset, but then quickly move into we're creating evidence. And so every time we're creating something in

For sure, being able to see that for yourself is powerful. And that's going to shift you into someone who believes that they're organized because I'm organized, but we put stuff on our countertop all the time when we walk into our house. And just because I have a pile of stuff there, I never once think I'm not organized because I know I can put it away in 10 minutes. So maybe if that's not the case for you or someone listening, maybe it's just that they don't have homes for things.

So they can still be organized and they can probably find evidence that they are. One of my clients is like, Tracy, I can plan a vacation like you would not believe. And I'm like, huh? I mean, it takes some organization to plan that vacation, doesn't it? And she's like, yeah, I mean, I'm so meticulous. And I'm like, yes, you are organized. So yeah, it is shifting the identity and how you see yourself and how you want to see yourself and who you're becoming.

Samantha Hawley (: 15:37

Hmm.

Tracy Hoth (: 15:44

in that process.

Samantha Hawley (: 15:46

So good. And I like that you said the first step, I think was the first or second, is basically identifying the stories you've been telling yourself. And when you said ADHD, I'm like, yes, that's what I hear a lot from my clients, ⁓ is like they can't put the dishes away every single night or do the dishes because they have ADHD or their car is messy. And it's the last thing they want to see on their drive home from work. But there's like rappers that are in the

Tracy Hoth (: 15:58

Peace.

Samantha Hawley (: 16:15

doorway, you know, like the door handle, I guess. And there's just, it's filled with wrappers and she just, her ADHD makes it so that she can't take it out. ⁓ And just the exhaustion and all of that. And I think bringing awareness to that's the thing. Do you think the awareness alone is like freeing? Like it's like, well I can control in a sense the ADHD or I'm actually, I can plan these trips and I am meticulous. I am organized. Is it just that, the awareness?

Tracy Hoth (: 16:17

Right. you

I think that's a huge part of it. And with ADHD, I never want to minimize what the challenges are because there definitely are challenges. also, what if every time I get gas at a gas station, I throw the trash out? And that's just such a habit. What if it's just a little habit like that that you haven't implemented? And you could

Put a sign up until you get good at that. I also, when I pull into the garage, I always pick up everything in my car that I can and we have a trash can right there. So setting up a trash can right there where you can take things out and throw them in the trash right when you get out of your car. So two little tiny habits like that are possible for anyone. And yeah, you may forget and you may not do it perfectly and all that's fine.

but just trying to have that habit or implementing something small like that and then setting up reminders to help yourself be successful, you're just gonna build more and more evidence that it's totally possible.

Samantha Hawley (: 17:45

Hmm. So it's like becoming aware of the, I'm calling it an excuse, but it's very, very real, right? But then almost outlining how specifically is this showing up? And if it is like the car, I love that. Like the rule of every time you get gas, you just throw it out. Again, that seems so doable. And trash can right outside of the car. I mean, that's brilliant. It's these little things that like I've never thought of. I don't know if other people have too. ⁓

Tracy Hoth (: 17:52

Yes, yes.

. Thank you.

Samantha Hawley (: 18:15

But yeah, just identifying how you specifically feel like you're not organized or cluttered. And I like those tiny, tiny systems and the evidence that's so huge because then you can always look back at that, right? Especially if you slip back into the, I'm a messy person or I'm just very cluttered.

Tracy Hoth (: 18:34

Yes.

Yeah. And I think having someone to help you see that is really important and such self-compassion because maybe your car's just messy because you never thought of having that habit in place or nobody taught you that. All of that's fine. I mean, my kids know because when they were in their car seats, every time we got gas, everybody had to find all the trash around them.

and give it to me to throw in the trash can. So, but maybe nobody ever taught you that or you've never heard that before. And that's the only reason you have a messy car. It really isn't because something's wrong with you or you need to be fixed or you're not good at something. No, it's just because of a little habit you don't have.

Samantha Hawley (: 19:09

Yeah. And it's like...

Yeah, it's like you don't know what you don't know. And you're working with, like all of your solutions feel like they're working with your circumstances and with your life and with any of the diagnoses that you have. It's not becoming a completely different person who doesn't have or never struggles. It's just discovering and then setting up a system in place that seems like it's like the tiny steps. I think you talked about this too, but I have a blueprint called the Calm Mind Blueprint.

Tracy Hoth (: 19:34

Right.

Samantha Hawley (: 19:47

And it's basically journaling through anything that makes you feel overwhelmed to inner peace. But that last prompt is for action. And it's micro steps. It's like those tiny things that you've already hinted at with like the closet and even just the tank tops that make it feel like, ⁓ I can do this. I don't have to become a different person, a new identity in order to have a clean car.

Tracy Hoth (: 20:12

Exactly. What if, I love thinking about this,

I was thinking of all these examples, but like an onion or, ⁓ what is it? The artichoke heart where you peel away the outside, all these lies or things you've thought about yourself or labeled yourself and inside is this beautiful, tender piece that's organized. What if that inside is organized and we just had all these lies and stories that we've made up about ourselves? We could peel all that off.

It made me think too of like a ⁓ butterfly that's inside the chrysalis still and she's getting loose and she's sticky and it's uncomfortable. But yet once she learns those little habits and has learned how to flap her wings or whatever, then she has that freedom and that belief now that she is organized and you know, it's not as big of a deal as maybe we've, you know, weighed ourselves down with.

Samantha Hawley (: 20:57

Okay.

Yeah, I love that you shared that example because that happened to me probably two years ago where I was complaining to my mom about how messy I am and how my house is like, I don't know, there's always laundry on the floor, all these examples. And her response was, it's so interesting because I'm a twin.

And I shared a bedroom with my twin. And she said, it's so interesting because your bed was the one that was always made. You were always the quote unquote clean twin. You liked to tidy things up. And her just saying that, it was like this flashback. And I was like, ⁓ that's right. I used to tuck my shirts in. I used to organize my shirt, all the things. And it was just that little flip of, well, what if I am organized? And that was so inspiring to realize, too, have that evidence of

I was, even when I was seven, lost my way a little bit, but I can come back to that version of myself.

Tracy Hoth (: 22:09

And it's so nice that your mom's there to remind you of that.

The other thing that brings up when you're talking about that is I do have an episode with my sister on my podcast and she talks about her bedroom. She would consider that she makes piles a lot, but one thing she said is that they just decided when they got married that they weren't going to or that they were always going to make their bed. So they have always made their bed their whole entire marriage and yet

Samantha Hawley (: 22:25

Mm-hmm.

Tracy Hoth (: 22:37

She had this huge pile and I think I have pictures on my blog post too of that episode, but she has huge pile of clothes on this dollhouse, which was teetering over and she decided to tackle that using the 15 minute declutter challenge that I have. she did it, took longer than 15 minutes, but she's like, I just don't want to have piles in there anymore. I want to come into this place. And I'm like,

You decided that you were going to make your bed and you guys have done that. What if you just decide that you're not going to have a pile there anymore? You just decide what would happen? What would it look like? For you, I'm like, what if you just decided that you put laundry away right after it came out of the dryer? What would happen? I don't know. Not that it matters if it's not bothering you or something, but what if we just decide ⁓ one little thing like you're saying, a micro step.

Samantha Hawley (: 23:22

Right.

Tracy Hoth (: 23:32

that we're gonna change. ⁓ You

Samantha Hawley (: 23:34

Yeah. I mean, when you said that of what if you just decide to put laundry away right away, I pictured how warm it is. Well, first of all,

I wait a couple days between the dryer portion and then the folding and then also the putting away. So I pictured doing it all at once. I'm like, whoa, wait, I would get to feel the warmth of the clothes and I would get to fold them. And it seemed like peaceful

almost for the first time.

Tracy Hoth (: 23:59

Yeah. I just learned too that resistance to doing what we want to do is the discomforting part. I learned that yesterday. Then this morning when I woke up, I had this whole argument with myself about not wanting to get up and work out. I had said I wasn't going to this morning, but I could because I was awake and had this whole argument. I was like, it's so argument,

the not doing what you said you were going to write, what you wrote down that you were going to do. And I even said I wasn't going to do, and I still had the argument. Like that was the not fun part. Doing the task is actually fun. The clothes are warm and you get to walk to the bedroom and yeah, and have them all cleaned up at one time. Like that part's great.

Samantha Hawley (: 24:34

Yeah.

Yeah. And it makes, that's like the time when you're off your phone, whether whatever you're decluttering, it's like you can't be texting really at the same time if you want it to go quicker. Otherwise that argument in your head that we all have is so time consuming. And then we talk ourselves into it, but then we're like, ⁓ bummer. I've got five minutes left. can't start now. That happened to me this morning. But I want to ask you.

Tracy Hoth (: 24:59

Yeah.

Samantha Hawley (: 25:11

One more question and then also find out about that decluttering challenge. Something that I hear is that my clients have very supportive spouses and they are the ones that do a lot of the picking up of the kids toys after school

Tracy Hoth (: 25:15

yeah. you

Samantha Hawley (: 25:28

or before school or whatever. They're doing a lot. And my clients, the females, are feeling guilty that they aren't cleaning up enough or maintaining their home.

enough? Have you experienced that? And if so, either yourself or with clients, and if so, how do you overcome that guilt that you're not doing enough?

Tracy Hoth (: 25:51

Well, I think the guilt comes from us thinking that we should be, right? It comes from some should.

where I think I would just be celebrating, like someone's cleaning it up. Yes, it's amazing. But then to dig down and like, well, what do you think should be the way? And if it's not clear, I think that comes up. So what if that was the role of the other person to do that and that wasn't your role, completely off the board and that was defined so then you could enjoy that. And this same thing came up, but it was kind of the opposite.

A client of mine thought that everyone else should be doing certain things and they weren't doing them. So she spent a lot of time upset because they weren't doing the things that she thinks they should be doing. Where I was like, what if you just do it yourself? You're going to be happy. You're going to get it done in five minutes. It's going to be done exactly like you want it. And you don't have to spend any time telling them something or

Samantha Hawley (: 26:34

Mmm.

Tracy Hoth (: 26:54

wishing they would be better. Like think of how much time you're going to save if you just took that role on. And she had never really thought about that. And she was like, yeah, I actually could do that. It kind of got her excited. So it was, it's a little bit the opposite, but same, I think to define what is your role or not your role, what you're going to enjoy or not enjoy. And then, and then, you know, own that.

Samantha Hawley (: 27:09

Yeah.

Yeah, I wrote that down. I wrote down what do you think should be the way, and then that will probably naturally lead to the discussion of, well, maybe we should redefine it anyways, even if that is true. ⁓ Yes.

Tracy Hoth (: 27:34

Yeah, because they're

thinking that they should be the ones to do it, right? Or it's not right or they're not doing a good enough job, but if they know what it is, even if it's the minimum of what they should do or want to do, like what's the minimum they want to do? And if they have time, they could go pick up some toys if they wanted to, but the minimum that they are going to do to feel amazing

are these things right here and just define it.

Samantha Hawley (: 28:01

Yeah.

so good and I feel like that approach will help you feel like so much more at ease and calm and peaceful. And like you said earlier, it really does take someone else to point these things out because we're just in that one lane, you normally attach to that identity like you said, that like these women just feel guilty and that's just, it is what it is. But yeah, just.

having someone else point out, what is it that you do do already? And that different perspective is so enlightening. And it sounds like your clients are getting that from you, which is amazing. But tell us about the declutter challenge, because I think I want to do it, and I'm sure my listeners do too.

Tracy Hoth (: 28:40

Yeah.

It's a

15 minute declutter challenge and what's interesting is I've been doing this 17 years and I've just never created that. And this last year I did I asked the ladies in my organized life academy I said hey test this out see what you think and even they have been saying Tracy this is so good why didn't I do this before I can get so much more done than I thought I could and typically spend so much more time dreading it like I said than just doing it.

And so it teaches you the five steps and it just teaches you how to set your clock and set your timer and do something for 15 minutes. And again, it's like that is going to add up and that's going to make a bigger difference than you ever imagined.

Samantha Hawley (: 29:30

Mm.

Yeah, for sure. And I like that it has the steps because I actually missed the A earlier when I was writing it down. What is the A again? A sign. There we go.

Tracy Hoth (: 29:44

yeah, assign homes, decide where it's gonna live. Yeah,

and there's a printout in there in that so you could print the steps. So wherever you're working, you could have those steps with you because just think you are organized if you know the steps and then you start practicing them every day or every time you have 15 minutes and you just get better and better. And that's the only thing, yeah.

Samantha Hawley (: 30:06

Yeah, and it just becomes, it

becomes like routine and you don't even think about it essentially. Love it.

Tracy Hoth (: 30:13

Right. That

belief has so much evidence because every 15 minutes you do anything, you're building that evidence.

Samantha Hawley (: 30:22

This was amazing, inspiring and all of the things. ⁓ Before we hop off, where can people find you? I will share that declutter challenge link in the show notes, but where else can people find you?

Tracy Hoth (: 30:34

Yes, at Simply Squared Away is the name of my company, simplysquaredaway.com. Forward slash declutter is the declutter challenge, but then also on my podcast, the Organize Coach podcast. .

Samantha Hawley (: 30:46

Amazing. And I'll share that episode with the decision framework

because again, I just listened to that one and that's only four steps and that was really good. So I'll put the link to that in the show notes. you everyone for listening. Make sure that you send this episode to maybe your spouse or a friend that just needs that confidence with decluttering and to feel more empowered about.

the organizing systems that you have in place and that you want to have. Thank you so much, you guys, for listening. And thank you, Tracy, for being here and sharing your wisdom with us.

Tracy Hoth (: 31:22

Thanks for having me. This was fun to talk about. I love digging deep into these different topics.

Samantha Hawley (: 31:27

Yeah, digging deep is like where all the meat is and like, you know, once you open that up, it's like a snowball of awareness and amazingness and all of the things. So it was amazing. Thank you.

Tracy Hoth (: 31:30

Yes. Yes.